tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post5113197381891252592..comments2023-09-01T13:36:59.610+05:30Comments on Tester Tested !: The domain particlePradeep Soundararajanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-17619785083858376402010-11-04T01:55:50.538+05:302010-11-04T01:55:50.538+05:30Nice post. I think its all about balance. I think ...Nice post. I think its all about balance. I think I have specialized in certain areas but I would not be limited to those because of my willingness to learn and adapt. Isnt that what change and lean is all about .... its adopting and changing with time. If I am offered a specialized job I will accept it.. but that does not stop me from growing in the same organization.shilpahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06869099963649136163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-33081683887101543902010-11-02T17:49:47.265+05:302010-11-02T17:49:47.265+05:30Hi All,
In the true sense domain knowledge is not...Hi All,<br /><br />In the true sense domain knowledge is not an absolute pre-requisite for software testing. <br />If you have it does help in many situation in speeding up the understanding process & possibly doing complex workflows/scenarios of that domain. <br />But also at times it hinders testing by blinding you from uncovering new or other possibilities of errors & omissions.<br />As for the hype generated about domain knowledge being important, as pointed out, mostly it is people who want to guard their own existence. This predominantly happens in a few domains like finance, telecom etc.<br />My own personal experience of not being tied to any domain has stood the test of time too.Ashwin Maruhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17956582242220898989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-43247529626041780232010-10-10T23:29:32.448+05:302010-10-10T23:29:32.448+05:30Key question this post is trying to ask and addres...Key question this post is trying to ask and address (IMHO )is NOT about whether or not domain skill is a must for a tester.<br />The question is - how does a skilled tester manages to switch from one domain to another. The question is how a tester can add value to new domain that a tester is asked to work on. The question is about how quickly one can learn a new domain given his/her learning skills, utilize knowledge of previously learned domains.<br /><br />I get pretty irritated when people make blanket statements "how can you test this app when you do not have any domain knowledge". I would reply - "of course, I can. Give me what to test and some time ...I can show what I do." While it might take a tester to learn new domains - a skilled tester can compensate for that lead time by bringing a new perspective that often gets ignored by so called "domain experts". <br /><br />While we talk so much about lack of domain skills for testers - there is not much debate about the reverse. Why do not hear lack of testing skills for domain people? Probably because testing is perceived to be easy !!!<br /><br />Skilled testers constantly invest in "learning" - for them it is lifetime quest. The hype around so called "domain experts" often irritates such testers who constantly strive to learn new domains and are not afraid of (as Michael B suggested) new domains. <br />Much of the hype around domain is created (IMHO) by domain experts themselves. They might be feeling threatened by this new breed of testers who learn quickly, challenge core beliefs and myths and are not afraid of new domains. For those holding specific domain knowledge as something "indispensible" - such surge of non domain experts making inroads into their world can be career threatening. In nutshell - it is about how much or whether to have domain knowledge or not. It is about how to exploit existing knowledge to learn new things.<br /><br />I feel as more and more people challenge the myth of domain knowledge and penetrate the fortress of the domain experts - the point will be made. Having said all of this – I would not hesitate to add domain experts are our friends - we can learn lot from them. Our (testers) life will be tough without them. A pair of a "willing to learn" domain expert and skilled software tester is what is need to the industry today.<br /><br />ShriniShrini Kulkarnihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10782753752478547381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-74415246314305588352010-10-10T20:05:52.943+05:302010-10-10T20:05:52.943+05:30Hi Pradeep,
I simply adore the passion you enthu...Hi Pradeep, <br />I simply adore the passion you enthuse in fellow test engineers to be passionate in what they do.<br />Coming to this topic of having domain knowledge I can recall an experience during an interview which I attended , I was interviewed by a lady who probed indepth about the testing concepts apart from few practical cases and how I would handle or test them .i answered her ,she was happy, since it was the first jumpm from the company i was working you can as well imagine my way of handling the interview (apart from technical),I asked that I was not probed on domain knowledge at all though it was mentioned in Job descrition that knowledge of certain domains was necessary to which she smiled and told "whicever domain you are into your job would be to test it,hence few scenarios I gave though not related to your domain was to find out how you go about doing your job".<br />She was satified and I too was glad to have been interviewed by lady who knew what and how to interview.<br />Nonetheless Pradeep ypour posts always infuses fresh energy to us fellow test engineers otherwise I see sadly my own people looking disenchanted with this profession a sorry state and way the mindset of people today is.<br />You are doing a yeoman service by guiding people like us.<br />Thanks once again.jaiwanthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16724657874030455912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-62120364863237608332010-10-07T14:53:35.772+05:302010-10-07T14:53:35.772+05:30@Anonymous,
What's your problem? Why don'...@Anonymous,<br /><br />What's your problem? Why don't you just be bold enough to put your full name, who you are and then say whatever you are saying?<br /><br />If you want to help others understand something hidden, hiding yourself to do that is a bad idea.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-50964947631783175052010-10-07T14:50:20.983+05:302010-10-07T14:50:20.983+05:30I forgot about my intentional blindness since I ha...I forgot about my intentional blindness since I have this problem of selective amnesia. Apologies.<br /><br />Somehow keep finding these regularly on the very respectable Software Testing Club where there are serious people, asking, answering and watching. <br /><br />http://www.softwaretestingclub.com/forum/topics/which-is-better-istqborsix<br /><br />Sorry to contest your thought though. I guess I will learn to just shup up and follow the experts.<br /><br />Yes World. Softwaretestingclub is the place to be ... where there are no people passing time by failing to respect others time ... <br />where posting junk is always rare occurence and it always done by genuine people seeking help and allowed to do so after checking genuinity by the serious people, who are answering and watching.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-61185937468803439282010-10-05T23:32:18.311+05:302010-10-05T23:32:18.311+05:30@Anonymous,
You display intentional blindness thr...@Anonymous,<br /><br />You display intentional blindness through your behavior. I may also want to suspect selective amnesia :)Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-961926197739232682010-10-05T23:19:03.465+05:302010-10-05T23:19:03.465+05:30Yet another googlable ant.
http://www.softwaretes...Yet another googlable ant.<br /><br />http://www.softwaretestingclub.com/forum/topics/web-security-testing?commentId=751045:Comment:89865Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-87157118647971993742010-10-05T23:16:00.603+05:302010-10-05T23:16:00.603+05:30One more ant.
http://www.softwaretestingclub.com/...One more ant.<br /><br />http://www.softwaretestingclub.com/forum/topics/certified-ethical-hackerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-23038104301825307682010-10-05T23:02:49.402+05:302010-10-05T23:02:49.402+05:30@Anonymohus
I am a good person. No, wait, I kille...@Anonymohus<br /><br />I am a good person. No, wait, I killed an ant today.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-34031056035083232732010-10-05T22:59:08.411+05:302010-10-05T22:59:08.411+05:30I have respect for CDT mailing list and Software T...I have respect for CDT mailing list and Software Testing Club. There are serious people, asking, answering and watching. I just hope there are a few more forums like that.<br /><br />http://www.softwaretestingclub.com/forum/topics/most-recognized-testing<br /><br />Sure. Serious people, asking, answering and watching.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-26396810784711348502010-10-05T17:50:41.583+05:302010-10-05T17:50:41.583+05:30Good post and an interesting topic pradeep
I slig...Good post and an interesting topic pradeep<br /><br />I slightly disagree...because if you have domain knowledge there are certain advantages to it...learning curve goes down,more ideas than a person who is new etc...BUT again I like the essence of this post which breaks the myth that "If you are a X domain tester you are not eligible/suitable for Y domain testing"<br /><br />why I call this a myth because, this has been practiced for quite a long time without questioning why? This post from my perspective is all about answer to why?<br /><br />...Thanks for this post with some simple yet powerful examples<br /><br />-shivShivnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-78175723783692202252010-10-05T13:03:06.233+05:302010-10-05T13:03:06.233+05:30My thoughts,
Give me any product - I can test it ...My thoughts,<br /><br />Give me any product - I can test it without what most of the people call "Domain Knowledge". Now, to add value to my testing for a specific product I might go learn rapidly about the product or use similar products and learn more to generate additional / more test ideas.<br /><br />This is all simultaneous. I do not need so many "X" hours to read about the product and then think "X" hours about it and then start testing. All happens in parallel.<br /><br /><br />Even some of the so called "Domain Experts" that I have seen do not know how to test. Now, it's just theory that they have and no demonstration of what their theory talks about. Now who would want such people?<br /><br />Thanks!Santhosh Tuppadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15798739919129502021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-28678256804600369592010-10-04T23:35:16.461+05:302010-10-04T23:35:16.461+05:30In one of the project which required core networki...In one of the project which required core networking skills we had a test team who read, talked and may be slept over only networking concepts. There was a feel of disgust in them towards articles or talks such as bug advocacy, software test forums, testing articles/events etc. The so called testers/network domain specialists I am now confused what to call them were more interested to attend and showcase their knowledge of networking concepts in network communities rather than testing events. <br />To me learning a domain and testing applications from the domain are two separate tasks. I have seen many who learn the domain well but when it comes to thinking of a test outside may be say the RFC or a conformance doc and they drop. <br />I also loved the ant example.<br />Thanks for sharing such a wonderful post.Sharath Byregowdahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05598574569004749448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-29135585093385215202010-10-04T16:50:03.488+05:302010-10-04T16:50:03.488+05:30Thanks for the notification and my apologies for t...Thanks for the notification and my apologies for the mistake done(i could have reviewed the comments before publishing it).What I meant to convey is that type of information is really a need for the indian software tesing community.Ramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05758703472215243698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-3254994730987836472010-10-04T14:24:08.516+05:302010-10-04T14:24:08.516+05:30@Ram,
You were probably excited when you commente...@Ram,<br /><br />You were probably excited when you commented and I appreciate that. I could suspect your excitement because you wrote "hardly" instead of "hard".<br /><br />On video surveillance, I am bounded by NDA. What I could do is to check with my client and let you know.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-27028262607062686822010-10-04T14:19:53.133+05:302010-10-04T14:19:53.133+05:30Hi Pradeep
A very high thoughtful post this tim...Hi Pradeep<br /> <br />A very high thoughtful post this time too.<br /><br /><br />Manual testing to Brainual testing---> Really this type of transformation is hardly needed in Indian Software testing industry.<br /><br /><br />If you do not mind can you publish a post about your video surveillance testing experience?<br /><br />Thanks<br />RamRamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05758703472215243698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-57950116403149685822010-10-04T10:54:31.579+05:302010-10-04T10:54:31.579+05:30Yet another nice post!!
IMHO, domain knowledge is ...Yet another nice post!!<br />IMHO, domain knowledge is certainly helpful but it doesn't mean a tester wouldn't able to test (or even better) without it. While an application needed a tester to test, first we looking for the tester who have previous experience to test similar application or who have the domain knowledge, if not have such one, then we looking for the tester who is able to learn the application and it's domain as quickly as possible to do effective testing (it may take more time than with domain knowledge). In this connection your Ants example is very much interesting!!<br />About the labeling of "Exploratory Tester", are not all human testers engage in some level of exploratory testing? OR if i call myself as a "Exploratory Tester" does it mean that i will never do any scripted testing irrelevant in any circumstances or i will never documented any of my tests? To me, it depends on the certain contextual factors, project type, client type and/or in any unavoidable circumstances.<br /><br />- SelimSelim Miahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05187393536220369774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-1151184913455636402010-10-04T08:48:34.827+05:302010-10-04T08:48:34.827+05:30I'm a specialist: I specialize in learning qu...I'm a specialist: I specialize in learning quickly about whatever domain in which I find myself. This has a number of advantages.<br /><br />1) I'm comfortable switching domains.<br />2) I can bring knowledge about other domains into the domain in which I'm working.<br />3) I tend to ask a lot of naive questions that help to jar people out of their preconceptions and assumptions.<br />4) I have to learn the domain for myself, and thereby construct a unique model for testing within it. With that, I find problems that other people might not find.<br />5) When I'm documenting my work, I focus on capturing the things that I found hard to understand, thereby (heuristically, at least) providing something helpful to the next tester.<br />6) As Pradeep has suggested, I don't get pigeonholed as a "financial services tester" or a "memory management software tester".<br />7) I get to learn about a large number of domains, which make my own life more interesting.<br />8) I don't get stuck quite so often in my own preconceptions.<br />9) Every new domain teaches me something about the domains in which I've worked previously.<br /><br />Now, if you'd like nine reasons why it's really good to specialize, I could give you those too. (I'd encourage those who advocate specialization to be specific about the advantages.) There are plenty of ways for testers, whether specialist or generalists, to be useful.<br /><br />---Michael B.Michael Bolton http://www.developsense.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027725699187903416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-74641546554403831922010-10-03T15:32:20.251+05:302010-10-03T15:32:20.251+05:30Pradeep, "are you saying domain knowledge is ...Pradeep, "are you saying domain knowledge is not needed to test the product?"... just kidding!<br /><br />I think the biggest problems is the boxing, the labeling, more than the domain itself. I can't oppose gaining expertise in my domain from my experience (I also don't want to), but labeling myself on it would, as you say, limit my scope of learning and acting.<br /><br />And with that, I find that "organizations who continue to think that domain knowledge is the most important skill for a tester" are quite a good relief, in good position compared to the trend I see most, of organization who think computer science degrees or coding skills or knowledge of a very specific testing tool is the most important skill.Shmuel Gershonhttp://testing.gershon.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-45938130202349087802010-10-03T13:23:19.695+05:302010-10-03T13:23:19.695+05:30@Pradeep,
Interesting post, indeed!
At every car...@Pradeep,<br /><br />Interesting post, indeed!<br /><br />At every career step of mine, I had to take a decision, "Should I choose a depth-wise approach or breadth-wise approach?". I chose the latter one to move across various "domains of testing" - functional to performance to functional/performance/security testing of security products.<br /><br />There are a lot of others that I know of, who have taken a conscious depth-wise decision. E.g. there's a person whom I know of - He's a performance engineer specialising in Oracle databases. This gets as specific as you think of. As for developers, I know of atleast one person who is interested only in kernel level development and given an option to move to user-mode, he quit the company.<br /><br />Whether a career decision is right or wrong is subjective. "Domain" in itself is an ambiguous word and can mean a lot more beyond the business domain of the application under test. There are people who choose to specialise and many crucial projects would be in need of specialists than know-a-little-about-alls like me :-).<br /><br />I have had the same experience in dealing with testers testing anti-virus software. Domain knowledge is a very important thing for such testers. Especially for the ones that are testing beyond the GUI. Such testers are the best candiates for becoming "product owners" in the agile world.<br /><br />So, although I have chosen a career path so far, as you have suggested in this post, I feel that the industry is in need for specialists along with testers like you and me. Atleast I don't myself fitting in many such situations where a specialist would.<br /><br />In your recent posts, you have brought many of key questions/challenges/dichotomies that the testers face. I admire you for this.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><a href="http://www.testingperspective.com" rel="nofollow">Rahul Verma</a>Rahul Vermahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15369178470521588425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-79076548871555672972010-10-03T10:33:42.189+05:302010-10-03T10:33:42.189+05:30Hi
I agree that domain knowledge isn't necess...Hi<br /><br />I agree that domain knowledge isn't necessary to do good testing.<br />But it is necessary in order to do excellent testing, that also encompasses Suitability, Completeness et.al.<br /><br />It also makes me think of the difference between passion for testing, and passion for a product.<br />You need to know what you love.Rikard Edgrenhttp://www.thetesteye.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-86221674609533343012010-10-03T09:03:16.274+05:302010-10-03T09:03:16.274+05:30@Vipul,
I understand and agree to what you mean b...@Vipul,<br /><br />I understand and agree to what you mean but the problem with most of these people is despite reading and understanding the RFC and protocols they hardly have any clue about the meta pattern because they don't need it. <br /><br />They don't need it as they want to remain in it. However, for such people, the domain takes over testing.<br /><br />They feel inferior to move out of embedded testing and test web applications.<br /><br />Their label hurts them during recession. A "multimedia tester" was laid off during recession, he needed a job badly due to his family situation but couldn't find it because at that time, no recruitment for multimedia testing was happening.<br /><br />He had to wait for a couple of months. Later when jobs started opening up, he got into it again.<br /><br />Why not pick multi specialization at least for your family sake if not for passion?<br /><br />I heard there was a discussion recently in Bangalore by a few testers who discussed about meta pattern :)Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-26903350117481772402010-10-03T08:52:41.183+05:302010-10-03T08:52:41.183+05:30Telecom tester - May be a label for some but for m...Telecom tester - May be a label for some but for me it means the person has highly specialized knowledge. Telecom is a big word and not every tester knows everything in Telecom world. However, what it means to me is - The person knows (for the area he has worked in) Protocols, RFCs, Tools, how these protocols work with other protocols, what are the equipments, more on embedded systems testing. <br />This knowledge can't be acquired in a few months. It requires a lot of study, practice and learning. IMO, this label is not useless.Vipul Kocherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04405989586097990830noreply@blogger.com