tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post4796985300729915558..comments2023-09-01T13:36:59.610+05:30Comments on Tester Tested !: Experience report of testing versus checkingPradeep Soundararajanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-49288361114840505162011-01-17T16:45:55.540+05:302011-01-17T16:45:55.540+05:30wow..this is truly an inspirational post for me .....wow..this is truly an inspirational post for me ...good work pradeep :)Palakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15067236756757707965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-30288018210125030292011-01-05T22:54:51.066+05:302011-01-05T22:54:51.066+05:30Thank you for the article - I always enjoy new per...Thank you for the article - I always enjoy new perspective. <br /><br />As a tester who was first a customer and then an IT Professionl before entering the world of software testing I strive to challenge the traditional ways that folks approach testing and to get people to understand the what and why behind the curtain, the dependencies.<br /><br />The concept of tests and checks I first ran across here - and give me terms for thinking that I have had in the past.<br /><br />I find the most difficult requirement to capture is the intent of the testing. I do many different types of testing with many different intended outcomes - I don't always look for bugs - it depends on what is necessary.<br /><br />I am not a person to leave comments, but I thank you and I thank the link here from James Bach.BrianEhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09946552115562772058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-62933068825334368012010-07-06T00:30:46.111+05:302010-07-06T00:30:46.111+05:30Hi Pradeep,
I think I love testing!
Otherwise bei...Hi Pradeep,<br /><br />I think I love testing!<br />Otherwise being happy (read drunk) after a office party and under a thick Management Accounting assignment due I wouldn't be writing a comment to your post after reading some interesting testing blog posts.<br /><br />Pradeep, I know the importance of automating checks but still if I procrastinate doing that and spend my valuable time doing checks sometimes instead of witty tests... What would be the solution to my problem :( <br /><br /><a href="http://proudtester.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Santosh Shukla </a>Santosh Shuklahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12964135207679937592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-66045558770805322232010-06-21T12:34:11.222+05:302010-06-21T12:34:11.222+05:30Hi Pradeep,
Nice Post again,you have changed your ...Hi Pradeep,<br />Nice Post again,you have changed your style of writing, its nice.<br /><br />I sneakily read your blog from office.<br />May I know what you meant by Video test cases as in our company also we use Webex recorder in our office to record the steps we perform?is this the same or is video test scripting something different.<br /><br />I was watching "The Shawshank Redemption" yesterday , was reminiscing you & the quote "Some birds aren't meant to be caged"<br /><br />Kudos to this free bird & thanks to you ,for been our inspiration.<br /><br />Cheers,<br />JassiJassihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04222670123900541460noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-63848902065319731042010-06-19T10:58:52.227+05:302010-06-19T10:58:52.227+05:30Hi Pradeep,
This is first time i have been to you...Hi Pradeep,<br /><br />This is first time i have been to your blog and believe me not only you have a great testing brain, you are good narrator too...<br /><br />the best part for me in this story was- "Had my colleagues at the client location been people who were active in learning, I wouldn't have sounded like an expert tester to them." thats the learning i'm taking from here...<br /><br />Thnx...Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10001710276143503022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-29078101953511097622010-06-15T07:20:47.770+05:302010-06-15T07:20:47.770+05:30@Manav,
Is it your checker tool did create the te...@Manav,<br /><br /><i>Is it your checker tool did create the test data and then also did the validation of business rule as well??<br /></i><br /><br />The software we were supposed to test writes data into a database, our tool just retrieves the written data and performs an analysis on it.<br /><br /><i>you said: Using TDD, you were able to find the errors in earlier code as well</i><br /><br />Well, TDD is a way to design and unit test code.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-84064276334975370812010-06-15T01:29:14.503+05:302010-06-15T01:29:14.503+05:30Pradeep,
Intresting post.
I have a few basic tho...Pradeep,<br /><br />Intresting post.<br /><br />I have a few basic thoughts:<br /><br />Assumptions:<br /><br />- You were hired to test a product having the business rules engine <br />- Historical data was there<br />- report viewer shows the report with historical data<br />- Product developed was to comply the business rules and show the data same as historical data.<br />-This product was new and there was no db with the new data post running of business rules.<br /><br /><br />Now my curious question(s)?<br /><br />- what database you queried to extract the values to be validated against the legacy data? <br />or<br />- What data was considered final? <br />- who created the this data? <br />- Is it your checker tool did create the test data and then also did the validation of business rule as well??<br /><br />you said: Using TDD, you were able to find the errors in earlier code as well<br /><br />my question:- Was Unit testing in scope of your few week engagement?<br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Manav AhujaManav Ahujanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-66213230091086753572010-06-14T14:00:10.318+05:302010-06-14T14:00:10.318+05:30its a good news because i am new and not aware tha...its a good news because i am new and not aware that blog can be used extensively in office also.i read a lot about testing and learn lot but worried of -ve consequencesAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11248751730707849614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-31566742040020178172010-06-14T07:14:10.125+05:302010-06-14T07:14:10.125+05:30@Ajoy,
Your blog's previous blogger template ...@Ajoy,<br /><br /><i>Your blog's previous blogger template was better than this. </i><br /><br />Yeah, I liked it too. Something got screwed up with the images and blogger had some fixes for it. People reading my blog from their offices had emailed me that they couldn't see half of the content, so I had to change and experiment.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-58908057339551908672010-06-13T23:05:55.713+05:302010-06-13T23:05:55.713+05:30Pradeep,
Your posts have always been thought provo...Pradeep,<br />Your posts have always been thought provoking. Just one suggestion. Your blog's previous blogger template was better than this. <br />Ajoy Kumar Singha<br /><a href="www.ajoysingha.info" rel="nofollow">www.ajoysingha.info</a>.Ajoy Singhahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08910292572520010141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-81089816907235362072010-06-12T03:31:21.731+05:302010-06-12T03:31:21.731+05:30Video recordings sound interesting indeed. But it ...Video recordings sound interesting indeed. But it will be hard to convince an organization to use especially when they rely on hundreds of thousands of test cases. There is problem of capturing, storing while preserving data confidentiality.Eusebiu Blinduhttp://www.testalways.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-32714575971996235752010-06-11T17:00:21.883+05:302010-06-11T17:00:21.883+05:30Hi Pradeep,
That was the most interesting article ...Hi Pradeep,<br />That was the most interesting article I read in recent days .Just emphasises one point that coordinated effort can take teams or organizations a very long way , unfortunately in most cases coordination is the thing which is most lacking rather than technical or domain knowledge.<br />Thanks once again for such a wonderul post .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-48989338507503805282010-06-10T10:58:47.675+05:302010-06-10T10:58:47.675+05:30Hi Pradeep,
'I have seen people not learning ...Hi Pradeep,<br /><br />'I have seen people not learning with time. I don't think they are putting in any efforts to improve on it'<br />This is a sad scenario. As for me... learning is continual and i have tried to internalize it at all levels... doesnt matter if it is personal, technical. <br /><br />'A lot of reading, writing practice and getting it reviewed by people is required to develop that skill'<br />Very true. Fortunately, i have worked with people who have been trying to improve upon their communication skills. Most would ask me to review the emails before sending it to the client. Not that i'm perfect but they considered me to be better than the rest on the team :)Priyahttp://testenthusiast.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-9816313475716141102010-06-09T21:54:20.668+05:302010-06-09T21:54:20.668+05:30Thanks Pradeep for sharing really a good experienc...Thanks Pradeep for sharing really a good experience with all.<br /><br />I have been reading your blog regularly since 2 months now. Still, I am not that much experienced in software testing field but I find your blog as the best resource which I can refer to for getting the best knowledge about testing.<br /><br />At my place, we are only working on the very basic testing and I am not getting chance to do other things and other kinds of testing. So, I am referring to your blog as a learning class and I really appreciate the efforts that you are putting to enhance the knowledge of testers like me.<br /><br />Thanks again for giving us a chance to learn new things.<br /><br />Take care...H!M@N$HUhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00359381749084929912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-50903247702003943732010-06-09T19:27:35.339+05:302010-06-09T19:27:35.339+05:30@Bill,
Perhaps I'm missing something but if y...@Bill,<br /><br /><i>Perhaps I'm missing something but if you are following the sames steps that someone else has followed (and not deviating) then yes this could be called a check. Afterall you've put not thought into this and just followed someone elses steps.</i><br /><br />To me what matters is the value I deliver to clients. In that context, what I have done here is to identify machine dependable checks and automated them to free the time for exploratory testing. <br /><br />However, I'd like to know what you might have done in this context.<br /><br /><i>Having said that if you then go beyond what the vidoes you followed, as you learn more about the software under test, and start to think for yourself and follow your own instinct and start going through steps you've thought of then you're testing. </i><br /><br />I did put my thoughts. As you might read above, I proposed the evaluation of quality criteria that they had not considered, tested for testability, usability, performance, reliability and more. Stakeholders were not interested at it given their time and situation. <br /><br /><i>You've got to start somewhere when learning about a new piece of software so from there your checks will develop into tests. </i><br /><br />If you ask me today, I can explain to you the product without showing the product to you and can draw a picture of different sub systems and how they are connected. I can test for regression and analyze the impact of a fix in the product. If I can do all this in three weeks, do you consider that I have learnt?<br /><br /><i>Love your description of how you convinced the other tester to use screen capture.</i><br /><br />Thank you<br /><br />Addition to that: I want to help you by responding to any further queries you may have.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-4047821043155430172010-06-09T18:58:42.397+05:302010-06-09T18:58:42.397+05:30Hi Pradeep
Perhaps I'm missing something but ...Hi Pradeep<br /><br />Perhaps I'm missing something but if you are following the sames steps that someone else has followed (and not deviating) then yes this could be called a check. Afterall you've put not thought into this and just followed someone elses steps.<br /><br />Having said that if you then go beyond what the vidoes you followed, as you learn more about the software under test, and start to think for yourself and follow your own instinct and start going through steps you've thought of then you're testing. <br /><br />You've got to start somewhere when learning about a new piece of software so from there your checks will develop into tests. <br /><br />Love your description of how you convinced the other tester to use screen capture.<br /><br />Bill<br /><a href="http://www.SoftwareTesting.net" rel="nofollow"> www.SoftwareTesting.net</a>William Echlinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09205065711550894955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-72149389860986135222010-06-09T15:42:12.671+05:302010-06-09T15:42:12.671+05:30@Priya,
I vaguely remember having done some video...@Priya,<br /><br /><i>I vaguely remember having done some video scripting, but it was to demonstrate product behavior in a particular test scenario and not on a regular basis. But it sure will be much more interesting and usable than test cases in an excel sheet!</i><br /><br />Cool<br /><br /><i>And thanks so much for sharing the email! Composing an email is an art i believe. and though we learn to better it with time... its great to see such an example!</i><br /><br />I have seen people not learning with time. I don't think they are putting in any efforts to improve on it.<br /><br />A lot of reading, writing practice and getting it reviewed by people is required to develop that skill.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-67948030859178921252010-06-09T15:22:40.303+05:302010-06-09T15:22:40.303+05:30A big thank you for sharing your testing experienc...A big thank you for sharing your testing experience Pradeep. Its indeed great learning material for me!<br />Reaching out to people and articulating ideas, requirements does help a lot more than just formal requests or emails.I'm all for team collaboration and team work.<br />I vaguely remember having done some video scripting, but it was to demonstrate product behavior in a particular test scenario and not on a regular basis. But it sure will be much more interesting and usable than test cases in an excel sheet!<br />And testability needs to be woven into the fabric that is the product! makes a testers life that much more easier and for that matter, a developer's too! i think it all depends on the development standards followed.<br />And thanks so much for sharing the email! Composing an email is an art i believe. and though we learn to better it with time... its great to see such an example!Priyahttp://testenthusiast.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-49666848227742544072010-06-09T12:17:30.222+05:302010-06-09T12:17:30.222+05:30@Ola,
I am very greatful to your client for allow...@Ola,<br /><br /><i>I am very greatful to your client for allowing you to share your experience with the rest of us!</i><br /><br />Here was the conversation between me and my client:<br /><br />"Would you permit me to blog about this experience if I hide all confidential information and get your approval before I publish?"<br /><br />Response, "I think you should blog about this to help those people who feel blocked after just proposing a good idea"<br /><br />I thank them.<br /><br /><i>The number of people involved and the networking you did shows how much better work we can do simply by talking to people and not rely on process and organization. </i><br /><br />Processes were probably create to facilitate things but I don't think it ended up being a facilitator. I do see people being stuck in trying to follow the process - which is not their goal. I am not saying; all processes should be broken. I am asking people to consider challenging the process which restricts them from achieving a bigger goal.<br /><br />With influential emailing, talking and body language, I could see people responding to what I require as I helped them understand what value I was trying to bring in.<br /><br /><i>Establishing testabillity is of course paramount if you want to be able to test and for me this is one of the major tasks I have in my current project. We're in the early stages of development in my primary project right now and I daily remind the developers that I need logging and I need stored procedures, I need to get data that I can use from day one.</i><br /><br />I would prefer to make a presentation to them of how much less I would disturb them if they invested just a little bit of time to get me these things followed by their favorite drink or pizza. Not that we are bribing them, we are showing care towards a common goal we have.<br /><br /><i>I love the "video scripting" for checking! I'll steal that immediatly, and let everyone know where I stole it. So easy, so simple and so very powerful.</i><br /><br />Here in India, many managers and tester cry over the need to provide their client an evidence. I have been telling them about videos for evidence and video test cases to show what we are exactly doing and for bug reporting. <br /><br />If we are writing test cases for evidence, what can beat the evidence of video? That was the question I was trying to solve.<br /><br />If a product has a button "Setup" in 10 different places and in 10 different contexts and some within the same page, which button should the newly joined tester click if he reads through a test case written by someone who is poor in English?<br /><br />I am proposing my client the idea of videos to be sent for in country testing or on site testing by business analysts.<br /><br />Maybe you would tell me your story soon.<br /><br />I am not permitted to share everything but I am glad I could share most of the important ones.<br /><br />BTW, thanks for making my ideas your own. That's a way to move forward.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-42047602992989025552010-06-09T11:58:33.151+05:302010-06-09T11:58:33.151+05:30Thank you Pradeep!
Inspirational and great story ...Thank you Pradeep!<br /><br />Inspirational and great story telling. You really get your points across well and your experiences will help me in my work.<br /><br />The number of people involved and the networking you did shows how much better work we can do simply by talking to people and not rely on process and organization. <br /><br />Establishing testabillity is of course paramount if you want to be able to test and for me this is one of the major tasks I have in my current project. We're in the early stages of development in my primary project right now and I daily remind the developers that I need logging and I need stored procedures, I need to get data that I can use from day one.<br /><br />I love the "video scripting" for checking! I'll steal that immediatly, and let everyone know where I stole it. So easy, so simple and so very powerful.<br /><br />I am very greatful to your client for allowing you to share your experience with the rest of us!Olahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12679909077391510827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-92138660887082844492010-06-09T11:25:51.374+05:302010-06-09T11:25:51.374+05:30@Selim,
Thank you for your encouraging words. I a...@Selim,<br /><br />Thank you for your encouraging words. I am inspired by the efforts of people like you who traveled from Bangladesh to Bangalore to attend BWST. Testers like you should be more in number.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-31876310098360486342010-06-09T11:23:05.668+05:302010-06-09T11:23:05.668+05:30Excellent experience report, you have exercised st...Excellent experience report, you have exercised stylistically innovative works! Lot to learn form the report and inspiring to others. <br /><br />- SelimSelim Miahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05187393536220369774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-57933068528557456092010-06-09T11:15:09.422+05:302010-06-09T11:15:09.422+05:30@ Tarik,
Wondeful post, indeed a learning experie...@ Tarik,<br /><br /><i>Wondeful post, indeed a learning experience for me.</i><br /><br />For me, too. Thanks. We have known for a long time now and I am glad you keep track on my posts as regular as I do.<br /><br /><i>Tests and checks should be distinguished and kept properly to have more value added through testing. most of the time the regression tests are all checks.</i><br /><br />Not all regression tests are checks. I have an idea of regression that involves checks and tests. I think that is more valuable than just checks alone or even tests alone.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-26800913910889398252010-06-09T11:11:07.843+05:302010-06-09T11:11:07.843+05:30@Siggie (happytesting)
Btw, you have a small bug ...@Siggie (happytesting)<br /><br /><i>Btw, you have a small bug in your post. Do you find it? Well, this sentence is shown twice when referring to James and Jonathan.</i><br /><br />Thanks for informing me about it. I have made the correction.<br /><br /><i><br />Thank you for a great story! Really like how you cut the long story into pieces and extracted the real and good stuff from every piece. You got a whole lot of points that are really important as I see them.</i><br /><br />I wrote this post for 8 hours and edited it for about 4 hours. It appears that the effort was worth it. Thank you.<br /><br /><i>Using TDD when its not very obvious that is what is needed. It takes alot of effort and a little turn-around thinking to use it properly.</i><br /><br />Yeah, I tried the TDD idea and it was helpful in this context. We hear a lot of good things and hardly put anything to practice. I must say reading Edward De Bono's "Think - Before its too late" excited a few more neurons in my brain. <br /><br /><i>Pairing with developers, business analysts and customers is just so great. I speak about my experience with the developer/stakeholder here and here.</i><br /><br />I am going to be reading your posts. It is exciting to read how others have done it because it would be helpful for my future consulting assignments.<br /><br /><i>Testability being a huge issue is also something that we are adressing at my client at the moment as well.<br /><br />And then of course, giving the developers the incentives with real numbers about how much they will help by doing those small tasks to move testing forward with great leaps. I am going to take that with me and try to use it more in my team =).</i><br /><br />Developers are rich source of information and help. After reading "More Secrets of Consulting - Jerry Weinberg", I realized that behavior of people around us is congruent to our behavior. The above case is very similar to that.Pradeep Soundararajanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17849721523107325938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21132099.post-2174888333083604352010-06-09T06:25:07.120+05:302010-06-09T06:25:07.120+05:30Wondeful post, indeed a learning experience for me...Wondeful post, indeed a learning experience for me.<br /><br />Tests and checks should be distinguished and kept properly to have more value added through testing. most of the time the regression tests are all checks.<br /><br />Checking is by definition verifying the functionality with the requirement while testing is asking questions which are not being asked and not in the requirement.<br /><br />Thanks for sharing Pradeep.Tarik Shethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05658126633373504829noreply@blogger.com